Our latest writing, Election 2012: A Different Point of View, has spurred some very interesting questions and many “Amen’s!” Here are a couple of attempts by Pastor Mark Holick and Ante Pavkovic to further clarify and rightly divide, through the grid of Scripture, what God is doing in our nation today and what He would have us do.
Remember, we will serve the Kingdom we see (John 5:19-20), and become like the god we worship (Jeremiah 2:5). What is God doing in our nation today, and what is He asking us, as His children, to do? ~ Flip
Here is Ante Pavkovic’s write-up:
The Election – Is Voting for Romney a Sin?
After much contemplation about Mitt Romney, I have submitted my thoughts about this election to Flip. I will try to be as brief and clear as possible.
Is it Biblical and proper to say that since Mitt Romney is a Mormon, we should not vote for him…no matter what? Is it proper not to vote for a man who clearly loves this country, our Constitution, way of life, freedoms, and free enterprise system… because of his religious beliefs?
Saints, may I also ask you that say with morbidity that voting for Romney is wrong—why? What is he going to do to us? What evil is he going to do against the United States and our Constitution?
So far, I have not heard good answers from people I have asked.
But let me tell you what Obama intends to do:
Since he is a communist, since he follows the RULES FOR RADICALS written by that wicked man Saul Alinsky many years ago, a book dedicated to Lucifer, we can be sure that Obama and all those with him intend to conquer the United States and overthrow our form of government WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT. How so? Well the plan is; when they are in power, to deliberately do things to cause prolonged suffering and chaos so that the people will finally say they have had enough, and will go along with whoever promises them a better future.
For example, we are warned over and over that early next year, we are going to go over the fiscal cliff. Why? Well the Bush tax cuts will expire, thereby immediately significantly raising taxes on everyone. A number of others serious cuts will take place because Congress hasn’t passed a budget AGAIN! And Obamacare will begin to kick in, which is yet another massive tax hike and illegal overthrow of the Constitution.
This will create far more chaos and suffering than the last 4 years, if you can believe it. What is coming is FAR WORSE. This is all part of the plan. So when we have suffered a good bit under this destruction that has come, Obama-the-Marxist-Traitor-Who-Belongs-in-Jail will speak to the nation and say something like this:
He will say that our Constitution was a great document that has served us well for centuries. And I’m sure he will wax eloquent about it and about our history as he reads from the teleprompter. And then he will tell us that things have changed. The world has changed. The Constitution has served us well all this time, but it is time for a change. It doesn’t work anymore. In order to go “Forward”(his Marxist slogan), we need to “change” our government to better serve our people and the world. And this con-job, this pack of lies, will work simply because economic suffering gets old, and people WILL SELL OUT IF THEY SUFFER LONG ENOUGH, especially dumbed-down, selfish, hedonistic and godless Americans that the Left has created via the Public School System, Hellavision, and now the internet, iPhones, IPads, videogames, etc. All these idols have not only mesmerized the nation, but are often nothing but items with which people corrupt themselves with sinful entertainment and filth. The plan is working. They have debased this nation, brainwashed us, distracted us, made us ignorant, silly, selfish, and idolaters.
Such a nation is ripe for a communist overthrow without a shot being fired. That is the plan. They wrote of it decades ago and have implemented it.
So then, do we let Obama get re-elected when we know it will mean THE END OF THE UNITED STATES AS WE KNOW IT? How moral and righteous is it to allow such an evil to take place?
You see, one thing I know is that Mitt Romney won’t do that, and wants the opposite to happen.
Did not God call Cyrus, a pagan King “Mine anointed” in Isaiah 45:1? Was he not used by God to help the Jews back to their land and to rebuild the Temple? Yes. Has not God used pagans to further his purposes? Is it not truly God’s wisdom to REBUKE THE CHURCH IN AMERICA by giving us a reprieve from Obama through a Mormon, and not a solid Christian man? Should we not be grateful God would even grant us a reprieve from Obama, and be humbled that the reprieve comes in the form of a man and a religion whose image and good family lives in America have outdone our own?
Mitt may be the answer to our prayer to deliver us from evil, but it may also be a rebuke to us, because we, just like Israel should not be in a position of needing the help of a pagan king to do the right thing. Israel was in bondage because of generations of sin and idolatry. That was not God’s will or plan. We are in the state we are in because of our sin and idolatry, and we ought not to have a devil like Obama in the White House, nor should we need the help of a Mormon to grant a reprieve.
If you are expecting a Christian leader, from whom we will have trickle-down-righteousness and a return to the Constitution, FORGET IT. We don’t deserve that, and that is not how it will work anyway. What we need are leaders who will ABIDE BY THE CONSTITUTION, LEAVE US ALONE so that we can live and do what we are supposed to do. Paul said to pray for leaders so that WE could lead quiet and peaceable lives-1Tim 2:1-4. It is for our benefit.
Our Founders envisioned that—men that would abide by the law and LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE. Is Romney such a man? If He is, then WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? Some of you have voted, and would vote for Catholics, who are every bit the idolatrous, paganized, another-gospel-false religion that Mormonism is, except that Rome has murdered hundreds of thousands of our brethren over the centuries, whereas Mormons have not. How do you justify such hypocrisy?
May I also ask, if our selections were Adolf Hitler and the Nazi power taking over, or Romney, would you still say you won’t vote for an America-loving, Constitution-loving Mormon and let Hitler take over?
My example is not extreme. Obama thinks babies that survive abortions should be left for dead, or another doctor should come in and finish the job. Three times as Senator this wicked man opposed legislation that would demand life-saving care to these little ones. HOW IS HE NOT AS EVIL AS HITLER??? Hitler hated homosexuals and had a number of them murdered, but Obama promotes their sin and wants to OVERTHROW the institution of marriage as well! Who is really more malignant? Who defies God and His created order of things more?
Where I am with all of this is that Romney will win. I have been telling people for many months that Obama will lose. His arrogance is a stench in the nostrils of God. Yes Obama is a judgment of God upon us. The Assyrian, Sennacherib was a judgment from God upon Israel, but he was so arrogant and merciless, that the Lord then judged him and removed him. I believe Obama is an Isaiah 10 scenario, where he and all those with him are an affront to God. I have reminded the Lord of this in my prayers over and over and plead for mercy upon us.
Romney will be a reprieve from heaven and an answer to our prayers, BUT HE IS A REBUKE TO THE CHURCH. If the church won’t be the church in America, if we won’t be salt and light, then He might just give it to the Mormons! If we don’t care about the unborn, and do what we must to end abortion, then how can we complain if God gives us mercy in a form that is also a rebuke???
I can promise you that God will be watching His people during Romney’s presidency. Things will get better. Will the church, with our freedoms sustained awhile longer, BE THE CHURCH AND GO AND DO WHAT IS RIGHT? Or will we go right back to sleep, right back to sin, right back to all our technological idols and time-wasters, rather than prayer, fasting, self-denial, our daily cross, evangelism, discipleship and pro-life work?
My friends, Obama must lose and will lose. Don’t be confused. Romney loves our country, will try to do good, but THE CHURCH is the conscience of our nation, and we better BE the church during his presidency or someone worse than Obama may come. Also, with the Tea party rising and the overthrow of not only many democrats, but moderate republicans from office in 2010, we must CONTINUE to see this as an opportunity to clean up the republican party and get our kind of people into office. We can still do this, and there has been a groundswell of support for better candidates than what we have been forced to accept from the Republican Party. Things are changing. We have worthy men waiting in the wings for 2016 and 2020, should the Lord tarry and sustain us until then.
Lastly and ultimately, our kingdom is not of this world. Righteousness will fully come when our Lord comes in glory and establishes His Kingdom in Jerusalem, as promised. The grace of God teaches us to LOOK FOR, LONG FOR AND BE READY FOR CHRIST’S GLORIOUS APPEARING-Titus 2:11-13. Don’t let your hearts be too settled here. This world will pass away. Our Lord’s return draws near. That is what I truly long for, groan for, and pray for. Until then let us occupy til He comes. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!
And here is Pastor Mark Holick’s:
Re: Upcoming Election: A Different View – (Attempt at some clarification)
Hello Saints of the Lord,
Godspeed to you. Recently Flip; with Rusty’s help sent the message: A Different Point of View. This teaching is significantly new and different from what our views in these areas have been in recent years. It has raised some questions for a number of us, in particular with respect to the teaching that to vote for the lesser of two evils is evil.
I am going to make an “attempt” at some clarification. This clarification is not a suggestion that I or anyone else accepts this view. The ideas are being put forth as an explanation on the “new” position.
Position: Jeremiah 29:7 (NIV) that we should - Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.”
Current Position: most of us have been using – A vote for the lesser of two evils is still evil.
New Position: We vote for the candidate(s) that we believe will most likely contribute to the “peace and prosperity” ofAmerica. This would include voting for a candidate that has a reasonable chance to win, (even if they are evil, i.e., Islamist/Socialist or Cultist/Mormon).
_________________
In order for one to be able to understand the new position, there are a few foundational beliefs that would need to be understood. Stated another way, these would need to be beliefs that one holds as currently relevant and true for us in America today. Most of these have to do with our current situation in America and where we are spiritually right now. I will not take time to establish those beliefs in this writing but if you would like to look into further explanation see Rusty Thomas’ writing, A Different Point of View.
1. America is currently under the judgment of the Lord
2. That neither America or the Church in America as a whole are repentant for the sins of our nation: the shedding of innocent blood, abortion/homicide, idolatry, Islam, homosexuality, etc.
3. America has already been carried away captive into Babylon
4. That the timing of Jeremiah 29 is applicable to America today
The Lesser Of Two Evils (LOTE) – If one is to accept the new position then what does that mean with the “lesser of two evils” teaching most of us have been operating with of late?
1. Is (LOTE) still true? Is (LOTE) now wrong?
2. Is this “new” teaching only true if in “Babylon?”
3. Why the change now?
The belief that the (LOTE) is still evil would still be true, but with this caveat, things are handled differently in some cases (i.e. possibly voting) when you are living inBabylonthen when you are living in Jerusalem/Christian America.
Some of our best examples are Daniel, who helped the pagan king with visions; Mordeci, who foiled an assassination plot against the king; Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and Ezra, who were employees of the pagan state. Yet all of them also had to stand up for justice or righteousness when the state was acting unjustly or unrighteously. In other words they did both. They could work towards the “peace and prosperity” of Babylon but they also fought injustice when necessary. They did not attempt to start a revolution against the pagan state; they worked within it as much as they possibly could.
Likely, one would argue that voting for an Islamist or Mormon is itself an unrighteous act. Maybe, or maybe since they are the only ones with a chance of winning, if we are in Babylon, then we should vote for the one most likely to allow the propagation of the Gospel so that the much needed repentance can come? You decide.
As to when the change occurred, (if it has), I don’t know. Was it 911, choice between an Islamist or Mormon for President, rise of Islam in America, Roe v. Wade, prayer and Bible forbidden in schools, or some other moment, or – are we not there yet? I don’t know. This is a decision that each of us will have to make on our own, particularly in relation to this new position.
In addition, I am sure all of us can relate that sometimes it takes certain truths time to “sink in.” Of course most any idea that is a paradigm shift from what we previously held will take some time.
With respect to this “new” teaching, does it only apply while inBabylon? Yes, that would be correct.
As a nation is blessed, the Lord’s people will be blessed, thus the opportunities for the Gospel to be preached are enhanced and the chance for repentance is heightened.
One final note: There is no doubt that if this teaching is true, that there would then be many other broader applications to the way we live and function as Christians. Also, there would be many other questions in other areas that this would give rise to. In order to keep this short I have made no attempt in this writing to address them, though they no doubt exist.
Blessings,
Pastor Mark E. Holick
Spirit One Christian Ministries
Who gets peace in the Bible? Those who obey God’s commandments. A nation which lives as though the Bible had never been written is a nation which will not know peace. The same is true in any home or any church. When God’s word is applied, it establishes peace. When it is not applied, men have war. That’s a fact of life which world leaders refuse to accept, therefore they will never know peace. Also see Deuteronomy 29:18-20, I Kings 9:22, Psalm 28:3, 34:14, 119:165, 120:7 and Isaiah 48:18-22.
“The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.” (Mal. 2:6) Notice that peace here is preceded by truth. (also see the same order in Mark 5:33-34) God doesn’t grant peace to those who are too cowardly to search out and embrace truth. One of God’s conditions for peace is the acceptance of truth. Those who run from truth run into war and hardship. In the Bible, wicked Ahab thought he would return from battle in peace, but he returned dead because he rejected the truth as preached from the mouth of Micaiah (I Kings 22).
As long as people seek to fill their minds with everything but the Bible, they will have everything but peace. Homes will be wrecked, churches will split, political groups will fight within our borders, and the military will fight beyond. There will be no peace until truth is more valuable to men than popularity, money, or power.
The nicest deeds of the wicked are evil and Romey fits this Role well,lets not compromise the first commandment of our Lord.
Hello Frank. I would like to know HOW a vote for Romney is compromise? Many Biblical and logical arguments are presented in the two posted articles. Just how is it compromise? Would you prefer communists running the nation, who forbid homeschooling, take our children and utterly brainwash them? Would you prefer no churches, or State run churches that cannot preach the truth? Would you prefer that pastors who do preach the truth all disappear in the middle of the night never to be seen again? Do you prefer what happened in the Soviet Union? Well that is what is coming.
I for one am not voting for Romney as I am opposing Obama. He MUST LOSE. This is not false cry of “wolf”. The wolf is here and is devouring and ready to devour. He must be stopped. If I love my neighbor, then I cannot allow such a man to rule over them. God bless.
Matthew 6:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mormons.
Brother Ante, I’m in complete agreement with Frank. I am surprised and disappointed by the “logic” that is being espoused here. I find it to be out of character for the principled Biblical approach that I am accustomed to from our leaders. I honestly feel like if I had a conversation with Ante from 8 years ago and explained our current quandary, that he would have had no trouble at all denouncing Mr. Romney for his wickedness, but now that we’re down to it, and the options are bleak, we’re willing to rationalize and justify things that our former selves would call us to repentance for.
Mormonism is, by far, a greater threat to the future of America and the preservation of the Church than Islam or any “socialist” type agenda. Just look at the statistics, Mormonism is the fastest growing “religion” in the world, growing at the expense of Christianity. An election of a Mormon president in the strongest country in the world will give them a legitimacy they have never known before and provide irreparable harm to true Christian missionary efforts.
Obama is clearly not a devil and there is absolutely no indication he wants to either support the spread of Islam in America OR create a Stalinist-type Communism where churches will be shut down. Whether or not gay “marriage” is created or the evil practice of abortion is upheld, it is not clear if it will lead to more people turning away from Christ; they won’t effect the work of missionaries and they won’t lead those of faith away. What is clear is that Romney has worked in the past to spread his pagan religion (through missionary work in France in the 1960s-1970s) and his election will harm the True Faith far more than anything else possible.
It is not prosperity we should be seeking it is a heart change,we serve a God who answers by fire and there is no man that can bring the peace we seek. The prodigal sons downward steps are self-will, selfishness,separation,sensuality, spiritual destituted,self-abasement,starvation.The upward climb which led
to his reconciliation are realization,resolution,repentance,return,reconciliation,re-clothing,rejoicing.My Prayer is that American would return to the God it once loved and trusted,what are we trying to hold on to here I love my God more than my freedom, because my freedom comes from his only begotten.There was a time in this nation when men knew that the mormon religion was dangerous and chased them half way across this country.I fear no man but God and what I fear is a religion that offends my Lord.To say that Lucifier and Jesus are brother is blasphemy if your worried about judgement keep waving you banner.As for me and my house we will serve the Lord ,our God knows the intent of all our hearts if finical ruin will bring us to our Knees I am willig to do so without compromise.Choose this day who you will serve I will serve my God in peace and in war.The bible says I have never seen the rigtheous forsaken or his descendants begging for bread Psalms37:25 so what are we afraid of.This is spiritual enviormentalism both these men are wicked and will not get my vote ,this race is another revelation of the spirtual condition of the American Church. We love our money more than we love our God Psalms 92:12 The righteous man will flourish like the palm tree,he will grow like a cedar in Lebanon.The book of proverbs tells us like a polluted well or a trampled spring is the righteous that gives way to the wicked.The wise man sees trouble coming and prepares himself God has given us ample warning.Stand fast be quick act like men fear does not dictate decisions. Gods commands are holy and just and I fear the first commandment of God over a socialist nation.The darker this nation gets the brighter my Chris shines.The Democrats believe that government is in control,the republicans believe in man is in control,Christians should believe that God is in control,unless we believe like the mormons that we may become gods.I know most of you well and will always love you till the end because you are my brothers in Christ and there is no compromise in his blood for the love I have for my fellow Christians to God be the Glory!!
There is PLENTY of evidence that Obama would and HAS DONE all the things you deny! I honestly have to ask where have you been the last four years??? As for Mormonism–so, how many terrorist acts have they engaged in since 9-11? Muslims, since 9-11, have perpetrated over NINETEEN THOUSAND ACTS OF TERRORISM WORLDWIDE. They have practically annihilated churches in Muslim nations. Where have Mormons does this? Your attempt to portray Mormonism as more dangerous than Islam or Obama and his fanatical lunatic communist fringes is comical. Obama IS a devil.
As for the fastest growing religion, I am sorry but Christianity, esp the Pentecostal kind is the fastest growing. Mormonism doesn’t come close. Allowing Obama another 4 years is suicidal, and to me, utterly irresponsible. Romney OBVIOUSLY is not close to the ideal candidate we want, but in order to continue to work towards candidates that we want, like we got and will get via the Tea party, we need a free America. With Romney this will continue, under Obama it will not.
LEt me add, that people need to see Obama 2016 and Dreams of my Real Father. You will squirm at the mere idea of this man getting another four years when you aware of all the facts in these videos.
Ante, these are foolish schemes based on the fear of man, not the fear of God. Unless the Lord builds the house, the laborers labor in vain. Have nothing to do with the evil deeds of darkness, rather expose them.
Brother, you can make such assertions, but you don’t demonstrate how they are so. In a Court of Law, such assertions must be proven, not simply stated. In Scripture we are told to “prove all things”-1Thess 5. No one is dealing with the arguments Pastor Mark and I have put forward. If you can refute our positions and points, please do so.
I want to make it plain IT IS BETTER to serve God in the sunshine than in the darkness of judgment. Even God calls the Day of the Lord a day of gloominess. Mercy rejoices against judgment. Of course I want America to turn back to God. But I also love what God has wrought here and surely don’t want Him to allow these treasonous snakes to destroy it and take over. That is INSANITY.
In perfect honesty Ante, I found some of the arguments to be very thin, vague, and poorly contextualized. There is a mountain of Scripture, both principle and direct commandment that stand in opposition to these claims. In particular, you used the stories of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, but seemingly failed to take note of the fact that they were put into a fiery furnace because they refused to dishonor God. Their stories, and Daniel’s, show integrity in the face of adversity, not capitulation. Serving God in our American context does not require that you cast your vote for wicked men, your pragmatic approach does. Lacing your horror over the prospects of another Obama administration with vestiges of Scripture does not make it a clear Biblical argument, and I would look to the prophetic voices in our nation to herald the King, not suggest ways to reconcile compromise.
I didn’t use the stories in Daniel. Perhaps you ought to read my article again. Calling my arguments “thin, vague and poorly contextualized” sounds impressive, but you gave no example of any of that. These are assertions. May I ask did not God use a PAGAN KING, Cyrus to build the temple and bring the Jews back to the land, AND did god not call him “mine anointed”???
As for the title of my article, that voting for Romne is a sin–I would like to hear a Scriptural argument that takes into account all the facts in our nation. I have not seen that yet. I do know that defeating Obama is a good thing. I do know that prosperity is better than poverty, freedom than chains, mercy than judgment, even if that mercy is a rebuke to us, which Romney is. We–yes WE THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST must repent in our nation that God is rebuking us while giving us a reprieve from a lunatic like Obama. Yes, the man and all like him are lunatics.
I TIM 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
II Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Is Romney accursed?
Since all non-Christians have the wrath of God upon them-John 3:36, then according to you, no one can hold any office anywhere in America. Is that your argument?
Also, if Obama wins, I’d be more concerned about America being officially cursed by heaven.
All unbelievers are accursed, so according to your argument, none of them can ever hold any office or be voted for.
America is accursed. We have been turned over to the Devil. So what are you all going to do when you are told YOU MUST sign up with Obama care? And what will you do when you are told they are going to start with their RFID chipping program, which is in that Satanic, unConstitutional bill?