Transcript of the Phil Donahue Show on MSNBC 9/25/2002

 Transcript of the Phil Donahue Show on MSNBC 9/25/2002

DONAHUE: The next battle between the religious right and the secular might be waged on your radio dial. Recently, in Lake Charles, Louisiana, loyal listeners of public radio woke up to find that Christian radio had replaced their station, their NPR station.
     Joining me now from Charlotte, North Carolina are Stuart Epperson, chairman of Salem Communications Corporation and National Religious Broadcasters board member. Also from Charlotte is the Reverend Flip Benham, director of Operation Rescue.
     Reverend, you can hear me all right?
     FLIP BENHAM, DIR., OPERATION RESCUE: Yes, sir, I can.
     DONAHUE: OK, you're the guy that goes from abortion clinic to abortion clinic hoping to prevent people from going in there and having this quite very legal procedure.
     BENHAM: I'm hoping very much to present the gospel and give moms a real choice, so that they can choose life. We work hard at that, Phil.
     DONAHUE: I know you do. And you want more radio stations to get that. What's wrong with NPR? Why would you want to replace it? What are you giving the nation that NPR isn't giving it?
     BENHAM: Well, I think that there's no question. It's called the truth, Phil. It's called that there's a ubiquitous censorship in NPR that doesn't allow the truth to get out, like that little babies boys and girls in their mother's wombs would like to live.
Like that homosexuality is a sin that will destroy a person that practices that behavior, and a nation that approves of it. Like Islam is a lie from the pit of hell that seeks to destroy, and lies about Christianity. So it's the truth.
     DONAHUE: Yes. You want more radio stations to be able to carry that message, obviously.
     BENHAM: Well, I would like to see it carried on your programs. I'd like to see it carried everywhere, the gospel of Jesus Christ, lifted up the way it really should be.
     DONAHUE: Yes. In a moment we'll meet a young woman who will be out here telling us that since the Reagan years, the number of Christian, or religious conservative radio stations, has doubled since the Reagan years. Pretty soon we'll be wall to wall Jesus, from the left end of the dial to...
     BENHAM: Maybe you'll give your heart to Christ. You need to, Phil.
     DONAHUE: Right.
     BENHAM: You really do.
     DONAHUE: So, you know, can a person who espouses choice appear on those stations?
     BENHAM: Absolutely. Everybody can appear. You know, God is the one who gave us the choice. Not you, Phil Donahue. God said, I set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, that you might live.
     God gives us a choice, Phil. Not you.
     DONAHUE: In your opinion.
     BENHAM: No, that's what the Bible says.
     DONAHUE: Oh, it's in the Bible. It must be true.
     Stuart Epperson, you're chairman of Salem Communications. Let's understand the difference here. You are a commercial Christian broadcaster. Do I understand that?
     STUART EPPERSON, NATIONAL RELIGIOUS BROADCASTERS: That's right, Phil.
     DONAHUE: I'm not sure I know the difference. But you understand the issue here. We're exploring, you know, Christians, God love the Christians. They are-
      incidentally, taking over these stations is legal because of FCC rules, that if you build a bigger tower, you can blow out all those smaller people below you.
     They literally can't compete with you, and they would be moved aside. Many of those stations that are in danger of being moved aside are NPR stations. And that's OK with you?
     EPPERSON: Well, Phil, let me explain the issue. I think "The New York Times" article and, to a certain extent, "The Wall Street Journal" article mischaracterized the situation, almost to the...
     DONAHUE: Well, straighten us out.
     EPPERSON: Let me tell you. Actually, what happened down in Louisiana, they had a translator in Cape Charles.
     DONAHUE: A translator being a small station that picks up a signal...
     EPPERSON: It's a secondary service. And the absolute rule forever is that a translator must go off the air if it causes objectionable interference to a licensed radio station. Now, the folks in Cape Charles had numerous opportunities to get a licensed radio station.
     In fact, they got a construction permit from the FCC, I believe, and never built it. In fact, as late as six months ago, I'm told that they had an opportunity to get a low power radio station-didn't get it. So, what happens after their construction permit lapsed, this American Family Radio filed it and got it. And the rules state very clearly, and everybody knows this, they had to go off the air.
     DONAHUE: Let me help you make your case. Patrick Vaughn is the lawyer for American Family Radio. That's the Donald Wildman outfit.
     Here's what he said: "NPR people should really be embarrassed. They knew for years that we had applied and they didn't do anything about it. NPR people were drawing money out of the community in the form of pledge support, but they didn't bother to apply for a full-power station. It's not our fault."
     So now we've got another Christian radio station in Louisiana. They can raise money, put it in the bank. And they'll have more money to buy more towers, and...
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: ... usurp more NPR radio stations. You get to make your point when we come back, in just a moment.
     (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
     DONAHUE: Coming up, more on the Christian radio stations replacing National Public Radio. And the joke that has the Catholic church in an uproar. But first, the top stories from MSNBC news headquarters.
     (NEWS BREAK)
     DONAHUE: Later in the show, a controversial half-time joke that got a Columbia University sophomore in trouble.
     We're continuing our discussion about the religious right in Charlotte, North Carolina. We're joined by the Reverend Flip Benham and National Religious Broadcasters board member Stuart Epperson. Also joining me now in the studio is Laura Flanders, who's a radio talk show host on San Francisco's KALW.
     You carry-do you carry "All Things Considered"?
     LAURA FLANDERS, HOST, "WORKING ASSETS": Yes. I mean, I'm a public radio broadcaster. I know how few of these stations we really have.
     DONAHUE: Let me just say...
     FLANDERS: There are very few of them.
     DONAHUE: Yes. Let me just say that Donald Wildmon's group now owns 194 radio stations. That's American Family Radio. And he has applications in for hundreds more...
     FLANDERS: Hundreds more. I mean...
     DONAHUE: ... with the FCC.
     FLANDERS: ... the issue here is, do you want-on these scarce number of stations we have, do you want Bob Jones University suddenly taking over your local public radio station?
     DONAHUE: Homosexuality is a sin.
     FLANDERS: Interracial dating is a sin.
      DONAHUE: Abortion is a sin.
     FLANDERS: Catholicism is a cult.
     DONAHUE: Condoms-can't use condoms. Third world people-I guess-
     FLANDERS: These guys have a right to their opinion. God bless them, and I know they think he does, they can preach any place in their churches. They can even buy commercial radio stations.
     DONAHUE: But what they're doing is legal, Laura!
     FLANDERS: They don't need that little bit of the public radio broadcast spectrum that's been set aside by government for the community as a whole, not one person's ministry or their political agenda, which is a part of this picture, too.
     DONAHUE: You know, it's not unlike the way religious-conservative religious Christian people have moved onto school boards.
     FLANDERS: Not unlike that.
     DONAHUE: And incidentally, you have to take your hat off to them.
     FLANDERS: Right.
     DONAHUE: They're doing it legally. They're exercising their rights in democracy, and they're getting on school boards and affecting books and textbooks! Now they're going to take...
     FLANDERS: Well, it's...
     DONAHUE: ... over the radio dial! Holy cow!
     FLANDERS: It's a lot of the same players, actually. If you look at the board of Salem Communications, you have some of the same players who pioneered exactly that kind of takeover. We're not talking about mom and pop preacher on the end of the street corner here. We're talking about organized political players, which is why people have been so quiet about this.
     DONAHUE: A political agenda, Flip Benham, and you, too, Stuart Epperson. You're going to...
     EPPERSON: Well, Phil...
     DONAHUE: You're going to chase-all of radio is going to be...
     EPPERSON: Phil, I'm amazed at your mischaracterization of what happened here. Would you really be outraged as much if I told you that in South Dakota, a translator was kicked off the air, forced to close down, which was owned by American Family Radio, and it was force to do close down by an NPR affiliate?      Would you be...
     DONAHUE: Is that right?
     EPPERSON: Would you really be upset about that?
     FLANDERS: There are guidelines...
     (CROSSTALK)
     FLANDERS: ... Spearfish (ph), South Dakota.
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: Yes. Let him make his point.
     EPPERSON: It happens all the time on translators. When they interfere, they go off. By the way, did you know that Family-American Family Radio covers 5 percent of the country - 5 percent? Do you know...
     FLANDERS: That's a whole lot more than...
     (CROSSTALK)
     EPPERSON: What percent of the population does NPR cover? Tell me.
     Take a guess.
     FLANDERS: It's not about NPR, Phil. It's about community stations.
     The community stations...
     EPPERSON: It's 91 percent.
     FLANDERS: ... are being kicked off the air here...
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: He's saying that the majority of the spectrum is certainly not controlled by these people. And I feel obliged to remind our audience that a "translator" station is a small station that takes a signal from another station by-I guess, picks it up with strength, and translates it into another frequency. No tower obliged. The tower, if it's built, allows whoever built the tower to knock off the translator.
     (CROSSTALK)
     EPPERSON: The people in Lake Charles had plenty of time to file for a radio station. Just about three or four or five or six months ago, they had an opportunity to get a low-power FM. They didn't do it!
     DONAHUE: Mr. Benham...
EPPERSON: And now-and they're crying foul because someone else gets a radio station!
     DONAHUE: Incidentally, I am obliged...
     EPPERSON: You got to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the rules!
     DONAHUE: ... to say to you...
     EPPERSON: You got to play by the rules, Phil! I-I-I'm unbelievable, what you're saying and what "The New York Times" said!
     DONAHUE: Well, you wouldn't be...
     EPPERSON: It's unbelievable!
     DONAHUE: ... the first-David Spizale (ph) is general manager of KRB, the Lafayette, Louisiana, NPR member who says, "The situation is almost resolved. We got a-we will be transmitting in the Lake Charles area." They're going to get back on the air. I want to make that point.
     We just think this is interesting.
     EPPERSON: Phil, you know how much...
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: You may-you have a point, sir.
     EPPERSON: ... on the air? Do you know how they got back on the air?
     I mean, do you know how they're doing this? With the taxpayers' money! They got a-they went to the government for a $300,000 grant to build a taller tower, when they could have done it for $30,000...
     DONAHUE: Right.
     EPPERSON: ... by simply applying, following the rules!
     DONAHUE: But you're...
     EPPERSON: Everybody knows that!
     FLANDERS: No, he's talking about the rules here. I mean, the rules -
      the government sets aside certain wavelengths for community broadcasting.
     The reason there's government money there...
     EPPERSON: Exactly.
     FLANDERS: ... is there's money for broadcasting that serves the whole community. Does your broadcasting serve the whole community? Could I...
     EPPERSON: Absolutely.
     FLANDERS: ... walk into that station...
     EPPERSON: Absolutely, and...
     FLANDERS: ... read a commentary with a view that you don't believe in?
     EPPERSON: These applicants-oh, absolutely!
     FLANDERS: I don't think so.
     (CROSSTALK)
     FLANDERS: I think you're misleading the public.
     EPPERSON: ... radio station. Religious broadcasters apply for these radio stations because they're considered by the government, the FCC, as being legally qualified!
     FLANDERS: And aren't you...
     EPPERSON: They follow the rules!
     FLANDERS: ... just playing the satellite broadcast content just as much? Are you building up the local community station? No, you're...
     EPPERSON: Absolutely!
     FLANDERS: ... still peddling the same programming out of Tupelo, Mississippi.
     EPPERSON: Last time I checked, NPR's a national programming service.
     DONAHUE: Right.
     EPPERSON: Very little-I hear very little. I hear some, but I hear very little local programming.
     FLANDERS: I agree there should be more, but...
     DONAHUE: Reverend...
     FLANDERS: ... it's not helped by you.
     DONAHUE: Reverend Benham, get in here.
     BENHAM: Hey, listen, I don't have-I don't even need to talk, Phil. You have been whining about the gospel of Jesus Christ for most of your adult life! The fact of the matter is that this gospel is bringing truth! Obviously, people want to hear that truth. And I think that you should stop trying to censor it from...
     FLANDERS: Who's censoring who?
     BENHAM: ... your foolish television program! You are censoring!
     FLANDERS: Flip, you have spent a career...
     BENHAM: You are the one that is upset...
     FLANDERS: ... harassing people...
     BENHAM: ... about the gospel of Christ being presented...
     FLANDERS: ... who are exercising their constitutional...
     BENHAM: ... anywhere!
     FLANDERS: ... rights!
     DONAHUE: Excuse me...
     BENHAM: It's the typical pro-choice whine that we have to live with all the time!
     EPPERSON: Hey, Phil...
     BENHAM: You know, not the church, not the state. Women must decide their fate.
     EPPERSON: Let me mention something, Phil. I checked...
      (CROSSTALK)
     EPPERSON: I've been around religious broadcasting for a long, long time.
     DONAHUE: Yes.
     EPPERSON: I went back and checked, and I checked with a number of people who are active in this organization, NRB.
     DONAHUE: Yes.
     EPPERSON: They have never heard of anyone on a holy war to get rid of NPR, not remotely.
     DONAHUE: Well, but certainly...
     EPPERSON: In fact, we have a cooperation with NPR in many cases.
     DONAHUE: Well...
     EPPERSON: We rent satellite time from NPR. It's a good relationship.
     DONAHUE: Yes. Reverend Benham?
     EPPERSON: There is no holy war!
     BENHAM: Well, NPR is just becoming irrelevant, just like you are, Phil!
     DONAHUE: Yes.
     BENHAM: It's becoming irrelevant because you've declared war on the wrong Lord! And we don't have any problem in presenting the gospel, but you don't want anyone to present...
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: Yes. Reverend Benham, do Jews to go heaven?
     BENHAM: Of course they don't! Not unless they come through blood of Jesus Christ!
     DONAHUE: Right. And that's a message I would assume that would be broadcast on these increasing religious stations.
     BENHAM: Let me just tell what you would be broadcast, Phil, is that Jesus invites all to come!
     (CROSSTALK)
     BENHAM: ... that are laboring and are heavy-laden, for all to come to him! They aren't like the ayatollah to force the dogma down your throat!
     FLANDERS: Wait a minute...
     BENHAM: Jesus bids to come!
     FLANDERS: This is the guy who...
     BENHAM: Not forcing dogma!
     FLANDERS: ... doesn't let people come to women's health clinics.
     BENHAM: That is not the truth, either!
     FLANDERS: This is a guy who spends...
     (CROSSTALK)
     BENHAM: ... so that they can make a real choice and choose life!
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: Sure, you can. Go ahead.
     EPPERSON: Dennis Prager (ph) told me...
     BENHAM: So you're censoring!
     EPPERSON: ... not too long ago-Dennis Prager's on the Salem Radio Network every day out of Los Angeles. Dennis said America was built primarily by people who have a very exclusive view on what salvation is...
     BENHAM: Amen!
     EPPERSON: ... but they worked together to present and build the most tolerant-most tolerant culture on Earth.
     DONAHUE: Right.
     EPPERSON: You can live in this country and express your views, get a radio station, get a newspaper, express your views and put your views in the marketplace...
     DONAHUE: Yes.
     EPPERSON: ... of ideas and let people...
     DONAHUE: Yes.
     EPPERSON: ... people determine what...
     (CROSSTALK)
     EPPERSON: ... we're the most tolerant society on Earth, and we're a part of it. We have a right to be here!
     FLANDERS: And you can be everywhere except for this little bit of the dial that's set aside for non-sectarian views...
     EPPERSON: We're legally qualified...
     (CROSSTALK)
     FLANDERS: ... everybody, for the community...
     DONAHUE: It is true...
     FLANDERS: ... as a whole!
     DONAHUE: It is true...
     EPPERSON: We're legally qualified to be licensees as Christian broadcasters.
     DONAHUE: Right. But the FCC set aside these little frequencies down
     it's on-incidentally, they're on the left side of the dial, 88.1, whatever, way down there with two numbers. They wanted that. Let's let that for the people. Let's allow it for local community.
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: They did not anticipate that it would be all turned over to Jesus!
     EPPERSON: Look, listen to this. The NPR probably has a great following, but the listeners don't support that. The government, the taxpayers have to support NPR. Religious radio is supported by listeners.
     DONAHUE: It is true...
     EPPERSON: Doesn't that tell you something about...
     FLANDERS: Not if you get those licenses, they're not. Then it's government money going to religious broadcasters. You don't understand that's a violation of the 1st Amendment. You need to go back to first grade.
     EPPERSON: There isn't any government money going to religious broadcasters at all!
     FLANDERS: You're giving away a public...
     (CROSSTALK)
     EPPERSON: The Public Broadcasting Act...
     BENHAM: You just can't stand...
     EPPERSON: ... of 1967, Phil...
     BENHAM: You can't stand a level playing field!
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: Right. I'm working hard to be...
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: I'm working hard to be worthy of the fact that you've watched me a long time to know what I've done with my life.
     (CROSSTALK)
     BENHAM: You've wasted your life and a lot of people's time along with...
     DONAHUE: Your comment is on the record.
     (CROSSTALK)
     DONAHUE: Your comment is on the record.
     EPPERSON: Phil, let me-let me mention something. The Communications Act...
     DONAHUE: I've got to break here.
     EPPERSON: ... of 1967 said that the public broadcasters should be-
     NPR should be totally unbiased. They're getting $275 million in taxpayers' money...
     DONAHUE: And you think they're biased.
     EPPERSON: Oh, I think-I think the general public feels they're biased.
     BENHAM: Everybody feels they're biased.
     DONAHUE: All right. I regret that we have not-are not able to continue our discussion. I'm sure you'll be back. This isn't going away. Jesus on the dial. Thank you all.
     EPPERSON: Thank you very much, Phil.
     We'll be back in just a moment.